Join Jeffrey Zeldman for an in-depth discussion in this video Jeffrey Zeldman: 20 years of Web Design and Community - Film, part of Jeffrey Zeldman: 20 years of Web Design and Community.
(bright music) Jeffrey Zeldman is, in a lot of ways the voice of our field. He's been a leader in web design for a long time. He's the reason I became a web designer. It was like I had a friend who knew about web design in the internet and was telling me all this things that you couldn't find anywhere else. He was one of the first ones to be like "No, let's take this somewhat seriously "and try and do something with it." He knows how to engage an audience, he knows how to speak to developers and designers and whoever else we are.
He takes all of these concepts that are from all over the place and he's able to put them together, and make everyone say, "Ah, that's what it is." He approaches it with both a seriousness and a good humor and perspective that is rare. I've always been impressed by his desire to give to the community. I've tried to take that same attitude. He's a good friend to everybody who works in this industry. Whether they know him personally or not, he's their friend.
(guitar strumming) (audience clapping) Thank you, so I'm on an airplane and the person next to me asks what I do. I find it very hard to answer. I don't know what to say about what I do because the words feel wrong. Nobody outside our industry has a clue what we do or why it matters. This isn't just a little Jane Austen comedy of manners, it's actually a serious problem when I realized that the person next to me, the person who doesn't get what I do could be my next boss or my next client.
How can we help other people actually understand and begin to value what we do. How can we can help them care about it almost as much as we do. (guitar strumming) When I first so the web, I had been using AOL, America Online for about two years. America Online was pretty and it was friendly and fun, it was a guided experience. When I saw a website in Mosaic, I thought, this will never last.
I had no idea that that was going to be my life. I looked it but, it's like falling in love with someone that you hate the first time you meet them. I looked at it and said, "This will never last. "AOL will kill this, this is just horrible." The websites that I checked at that time were really terrible. People were using the web to share research papers or to publish rents or have some other very nerdy thing which is so great and so cool.
I made this thing, I called Jeffrey Zeldman Presents. It was based on the old Alfred Hitchcock show and my friend Steve took a picture of me facing side ways and holding my hands like this. I didn't have that much competition and I was always educating. I was always, the first thing I put on the web was Ask Doctor Web, which was a series of tutorials I wrote to tell other designers, developers, plumbers, whoever, how to make websites.
There was a lot to learn, there were like 11 tags in HTML. I started making websites in mid to late 1990s. Jeffrey was just one of those sites you would have gone bound to come across. I think if you're working on the web during like I don't know, a 10 year block or so there. It was really hard not to be aware of him. In particular, the web started out as a lot of people trying things and there wasn't really great central sources.
What happened was, there was a lot of individual voices. In the 1990s, building a webpage was really basic. There were just here are some paragraphs, here are some tables, here are some images, it was not the design experience that we know now. When tables began introduced, all the designers went "ding-ding-ding "we can hack these tables to create column layouts." So we latched on to tables and putting designs and tables and nesting tables inside of tables and tables inside of tables tables tables.
There were this really thorny, ugly things. It was cool if you had flashing images on your website. If you had the man with pickaxe, that one the construction sign. If you had marquee, a scrolling marquee it was cool. It was so basic that there were almost wasn't any design, that we all went crazy over stupid things like small pixel fonts there where you could barely read anything. It's like tiny, tiny fonts to read. We only had 216 colors, right, the web safe colors.
Screen resolutions yes, 640 by 480, maybe 800 by 600. That seems really limiting if you're coming from the world of print. But Jeffrey when you went to his site, Zeldman.com, he would use that pixely limited palette to make something really quite beautiful in its own way, in a more web native way rather than trying to just imitate print. It's like embracing the medium which I think his always been really good at. I guess that's why also, because there was this really nice narrative structure to almost everything he does.
He's good at spotting the narratives and relaying them which is really important because developers and designers got their heads down stuck in their work and we can forget why we're doing this or we can forget the bigger picture that the unbroken chain that we're part of from the early web, from those first days of the web that we're continuing that work. Jeff is really good at bringing out that narrative. (mellow music) This is the penguin book of comics.
I'd loved Spiderman and all that stuff and I wanted to go more deeply into it and I think in seventh grade is when I saw this book and got it and I just, we didn't have air conditioning. I will just like climb into the bathtub in the summer day and just like lose myself in this book for hours. They had like thousands of examples of comics and I would read every one of them. They go way back to the bio tapestry and they go through political cartoons. They're tracing the roots of visual storytelling.
I tried to be a comic artist from, I don't know, from like I get it all day long in school. I didn't really pay attention. I would just draw comics. My first comics were the army ants, the black ants and the white ants that were attacking each other. Then my parents were really encouraging. They told me that my work was great. It wasn't but they told me that which was really nice as it was something that I got confidence in. When I was in college, I still try to sell comics to the New Yorker and Playboy.
I mean the idea of starting small didn't occur to me. I failed in a bunch of things. I'd fail to fiction. I was in rock bands. I ended up writing for the Washington Post but not as a staff writer, as a stringer and they fired me one day, I never found out why. I ended up in advertising at first, not because I was creatively driven. I just plunge, like whenever I get interested in something, I dive into it obsessively to the exclusion of pretty much everything else.
I got all these books like When advertising tried harder in Bill Bernbach's book. These are the classic ads like, let me find the Volkswagen ad. I ruined this one but there's one that's we finally found a beautiful picture of a Volkswagen and it was just a snowy road. What was beautiful was that the Volkswagen could travel through the snow very easily but what they were saying is we know our car is ugly and nobody get that in advertising back then. Just very direct communication like with the comics, clean, straight forward, direct communication in a clever, interesting way.
I wasn't good enough to stay in advertising with that. I tried but I don't think I loved it as much as they did. It made me a communication designer so that when the web came around, I saw it as a medium for communicating. The web was exciting to me because I tried to publish my novels and I hadn't. I tried to get a record deal and I hadn't gotten a record deal. There's always gatekeepers when you're a creative person. Maybe the publishers were right not to publish my stuff.
Maybe the record companies were right but with the web, it was all up to me. Five minutes after it became possible to do table layouts, (mumbling) began hacking their wares on the web. This is years before Flash. Years before Amazon was even a gleam in Jeff Bezos' eye and I was one of the people who rushed to do it. My second website was my personal site zeldman.com but my first was a promotional site for Warner Brothers. A client at the ad agency where until I got this opportunity, I was struggling and sad and miserable but suddenly working on a website changed all that.
In 1995, we were in a meeting and the client said look it. I love you guys and I think you're going to get the account but I'm honor bound to let my internal team compete for it, and the internal team had already had like a year of website experience in 1995. This means they were designing websites in 1994 for Mosaic, right? They were technically way more advanced than we were. The client said to us now, just please be quiet while the other team makes their pitch.
We were supposed to sit there with our mouths shut and that's only right. The other team started and they had just started to talk and the person leading it said, "Batman," now I don't know how he thought there was going to be animation because remember it's 1995. He says, "Batman swings out on a rope and says "hi I'm Batman," and I said, "Batman doesn't talk." I'm not the client, don't get to say that. I was the guy pitching the account but I said, "Batman doesn't talk because batman doesn't talk." If you knew anything you'd know that.
If you understood the character at all, you would know that. You can't make Batman your chill for the website. Batman can't address the website at all. The client looked at me and I knew that we had it and we did. Netscape 1.1 had just come out and it enabled a couple of things, it enabled a repeating background tile which was the way to make a false screen background back then that had never existed before. There hadn't even been support for images in the first version and now, not only could you take an image but you could put it in a BG, was it a BG element, I forget, this proprietary nonstandard HTML element that Netscape made up.
This is years before Flash. We had an animated entrance event before the Flash intro. It was a bat flying toward you. My partner Steve McCarron took some artwork from DC comics of the bat logo and then shrunk it by 20% and saved that as a GIF image and then shrunk it again and saved it as a GIF image. He kept shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking to make it smaller and smaller and smaller. Then he reversed the series of images so that it started small and went big and then we hired a guy named Doug Rice who had a small interactive agency called Interactivate.
He wrote a Perl script for us which would send the first image and when it had finished loading, tell the server to send you another image, very primitive and ridiculous but it blew people's minds. I'm talking about a tiny image too, right? Except screens were very low resolution and rather small so it just filled your screen. We centered this thing and that was another thing you could do. Netscape had a center tag, right? There were all kinds of primitive layout things that we could do.
Anyway, once the sequence of image is, once the bat had flown toward you, it took you to the homepage. It wasn't just that we were doing visual things that nobody had ever done before. It was that nobody was thinking of the web as an exciting presentation medium. As soon as I worked on a website, I was done with advertising. It was so exciting. It was like all the excitement that had been missing for a long time for me and the different creative things I did was back and just like intense collaboration and like someone would knock on the door, you'd say, "Go away." It was like we were in a submarine and we were going to come up with something brilliant three months later.
When we did this batmanforever.com, so there were three million people using the web at the time and we had 1.5 million unique visitors which means half the internet saw my work and for someone who'd been struggling as a musician, struggling as a fiction writer, struggling as a journalist to suddenly I have an audience. It didn't matter that it wasn't, they weren't coming for me but it was amazing to be able to communicate with an audience.
(mellow music) There are a lot of web designers out there and it's hard sometimes to think of it as a community. I mean it's sort of like saying the world is a community, there's sort of well, yeah but there's a whole bunch of different kinds of folks. It's a very difficult group, any industry is to sort of crow and steer in the right direction. When the List Apart started, it wasn't a site, it was literally list, it was a mailing list.
Jeffrey's idea was to take the more curated approach that would be more like a magazine that you got in your inbox and somebody had gone through the questions, have gone and yeah curated them into something that had a bit of a narrative to it. I guess it was a natural progression that of course it's going to end up as a magazine on the web. Sites like A List Apart became focal points for people to come together around. While it was great that everybody had an individual website. It's really hard to go to everybody's individual website all the time.
I remember the first article I wrote for A List Apart was like heavily edited, right. It was review through three processes. That established a level of authority and credibility and I think made that content stand out. It was kind of a golden period but every week it seemed it was an amazing ground breaking articles like sliding doors and full columns and these really clever techniques. Jeffrey had set the tone for that that what you do when you're working and you come up with something cool is you don't hold on to it, you share it.
It was kind of the default which I really like because I think that fits with the original spirit of the web when Tim Berners-Lee created the web at CERN it was all about sharing. Share what you know was the motto of the web when it was created and Jeffrey has always been about sharing. People who were figuring out web design and web development shared their ideas in these mailing lists. The problem was well, it's the internet so there were flame wars and all this stuff and there was one really good mailing list called WebDesign-L which my friend Steven Champeon had started.
That was great but it was very developer focused and I thought there was room for a mailing list about all the things but I also thought there was room for a mailing list that where flame wars never happened, where there was no bullying. I met a guy in one of the newsgroups named Brian Platts. He said, "Well, I have this newsgroup software "and I'm already running some newsgroups. "Do you want to do one together?" We'll make a mailing list that's different, so we called it A List Apart which turns out to have been years later a terrible name for a website about web design but it was a great name for a list that was different.
When we made the transition to a web magazine, instead of waiting for that ... First of all we had 16,000 meters built in on launch day. That was great. Second of all, I got to know other people who were doing really interesting writing on the web and I got them, asked them to write articles. Nobody got paid, there were no ads. It was, this was how it launched. This newsletter had created a community. Now, the magazine created a community and I never thought, am I fit to do this which seems weird but of all people I've heard Tom Cruise give this example.
You're driving along and you see a car wreck and you're the only other car on the road. There's a car that's crashed and someone's hurt. You're not qualified, you're not a doctor but you don't see an ambulance, you don't see a cop. What are you going to do? There's nobody else to take it. You get out of your car and you try the best you can to help this person. That's how the early web was and that's how I felt about it. I guess I had some creative self-confidence because I've been presenting ads to clients and I've been on stage playing music but beyond that it was just somebody had to do it, somebody had to do this stuff.
I hoped, I think the great strength of the web is if you don't see what you like, you make your own. It wasn't really even a choice. It was just like someone's got to do this and no one else, well and it was great fun. Every time I have a client project, not only was I learning but it was supporting A List Apart. This year the web turns 25. For 25 years it's been a mass medium shaped by some of the greatest minds of the generation. Now, I've written two books about web design and in some senses both books were at least partly about technology and in many cases people focused almost entirely on the technology.
The message of designing with web standards was the message of any design book which is what we do is for people to make sure they have a good experience. Now, in our business we get very excited about technology but it's important to always keep in mind to every session that we attend what this technology is really all about. We don't make our page accessible for a gold star. We don't design for browsers. We don't design for mobile devices. We don't design for tables and phablets and touch screens and everything else.
We design for people. Our stuff has to work in those places but we design experiences for people. The web is not technology, web design is about people. Web design is service design. Web design is for people. (mellow music) The web design industry is a really young industry and only really 20 years old but already it's had these several times where we realize we were doing it wrong in this real sort of moments of clarity where a really strong personality and voice came out and said, we've got to start doing this a different way.
The first time that that happened and demonstrated really that it could be done in change was when Jeffrey Zeldman led the Standards Movement. We were all frustrated with the way that the two major browsers had this incompatible ways of working. It was dark times I have to say. Looking back it was dark times because trying to make any website work back then, you have to fork your code because essentially there's two browsers, Netscape and Internet Explorer and you have to rewrite everything for the two different browsers.
All through the 90s it was this arms raised between browsers to try to get bigger market share, right? The way they did that was by adding new and new features and essentially they were kind of writing and mangling HTML in order to do it. Here's a new feature to HTML, here's another feature to HTML. You went from a world that you couldn't do very much but you could actually do a lot but doing it consistently and coherently became very hard. Back then you literally had things like I remember using this thing called Dynamic Duo, it's like cross-browser in HTML and you had layers in Netscape and you had divs and IE and you had to write it like duplicate code for everything.
Once upon a time I would be so booked down in browser hacks and tricks to get around IE six and it would hamper my work. People said, enough is enough and the Web Standard's project started up. Anyway, taking its language and its tone from that kind of tradition of worker's movements I guess and like we're not going to take it anymore, protest effectively. The web was supposed to be an open platform for all human knowledge and for all human sharing. It's huge, it's bigger than Gutenberg.
It's bigger than the printing press. By 1998, the market was just about evenly divided between IE and Netscape. Now, it makes sense that if there's two illustration programs, they'll have different features and compete that way. That's fine in that world but the web is supposed to be an open platform for all and here we were making these sites that were incompatible or where you had to now tell your users you had to put up a door and lockout half your users.
Sorry, this is for IE only. It doesn't make any sense. Unfortunately these two browser makers that were locked in this death struggle were competing the way software manufacturers always compete, competing on features and nobody was saying first you have to support the specifications. You have to support HTML, you have to support CSS. We came along and did that. The W3C didn't have the power to enforce standards, they didn't even call them standards, they called them specifications or recommendations.
We came on and said no, they're standards. The web won't progress unless we all accept that these things are the best we have right now. If Microsoft, if you want to come out with colored scrollbars so that the browser can support my company's website branding even on its scrollbars that’s great, that's awesome but first support CSS correctly, support CSS 1.0 correctly and completely. Netscape, if you want to come out with Netscape style sheets or some other proprietary innovation, that's fantastic but get CSS right, your CSS sucks.
When we started, we didn't know that semantic markup would have benefits in terms of making your content more accessible to people with disabilities. We didn't know that or at least I didn't know that. We didn't know that it would be easier to find your stuff with a search engine if we use semantic markup. We didn't know that because Google hadn't exist yet. We just knew that this markup was designed this way for a reason, it was supposed to be supported and that CSS was supposed to be supported so we could do layouts not with tables.
If we could get tables out of the content and just have the content be the content then it could also work in a phone or it could work in a tiny browser window or you know what I mean? We could start to get into multiple layouts. The problem was once you got the browser makers on board and the browsers were supporting standards correctly, you still didn't have designers. Designers were still going "Yeah, "one of my client said just use IE "so that's what we're designing for." Or Flash works, I don't have to worry about this.
There were lots of arguments. It was 10 years of struggle. It became again an education and outreach project. (bright music) Before this book, there was a tiny vanguard of people designing with web standards and everyone else was using Flash or tables. This book for whatever reason, it just blew people's minds and I saw people coming up to me saying, I was going to leave web design but then I read your book and you changed my ...
Not that I invented all these ideas, this was a whole community that came up with these ideas but I managed through argumentation to help people get it. Some of the people on Amazon hated this book and said, everyone's talking about this book but I don't understand it because there's not even any code until you get to chapter five, right. That was deliberate. This is a book of argument. I had to persuade people who didn't know about web standards or didn't care about them why it really mattered to the people who used their website, why it really mattered to their marketing department and their content people and everyone else that cared about the future of their website, why it mattered to the future of their website and their products because the web is where everything is going.
Then I also had to help the people who were already onboard, give them the ammunition they needed to go to work and say, "Here's why we're going to do this, boss. "We have to do this differently now, boss." Because that's what people a lot of times designers speak to designers and developers speak to developers and we forget to provide that translation to the business user, to decision maker. This had to be persuasive to the decision maker.
Letting your people do this will help them get search results so your content is found. There's been three editions. The third edition obviously gets into responsive design and other kinds of newer things and if we wrote a fourth one, my god, it would probably have to be seven times this thick because there's so much now. In fact there's so much now that instead of trying to put it all in one book, I got together with some other friends and made a publishing company where we can make little books that tackle each of the many things that need to be tackled in great depth without reference to the other stuff.
Instead of trying to make the ultimate book that tells you everything about designing the web standards. Let's make a book just on HTML five. Let's make a book just on mobile first, right. Finding these great authors, helping them focus it even more and making these books to me are the way to continue this education process for the whole industry, all of us learning together. (bright music) 10 years ago Jeffrey rallied the entire web industry as a community and since then he's actually been also been creating several other communities.
One is through the Book Apart book franchise which itself is a way to reach a large web community but also through the Event Apart conferences where four or 500 people gather together to hear about sort of latest ideas and there's something special about gathering people in the same room that I think a lot of the best conferences, some of the best conversations happen between the attendees. One of the things that I always tell people about Jeffrey is I call him like the Miles Davis of web design because he has this unique talent for finding individuals in the community and bringing them forward.
Both with A List Apart and Event Apart, I was asked to contribute. I don't know what process underlies that but if you look at his ability to find people in the community and give them recognition and kind of bring their ideas to a much wider audience that's immensely valuable. I think Jeffrey likes to think of himself like a DJ, right. He's like putting together a playlist of people and again, he knows the right people to get, he knows who's going to be good and he evolves it overtime. He sees what does the industry need to hear now? That's the kind of stuff you hear in the Event Apart has changed over time in the same way it's kind of stuff you read and List Apart has changed overtime.
I look back in particular, there's a year 2010 in Seattle at Event Apart where Ethan Marcotte did the first talk kind of a responsive web design. I did the first talk on mobile first and I think Kristina Halvorson did a content strategy thing there. I look back on that which is now four years ago I know there's a lot of ideas that still to this day people are sorting through and working out. He's like the all seeing eye. He sees everything, hears everything, watches people for small social interactions and I think he's really good at picking people who not only know their stuff in a fantastic articulating elements that the rest of the community would find helpful.
He's also good at picking in my opinion, nice humble people who would take the time to sit with people at events like in Event Apart and have lunch with other attendees and sit and explain how they got started. He doesn't just pick people who are fantastic at what they do, he picks people who are also humble and nice people along with it which actually is quite (laughs). Jeffrey is not particularly a practicing designer anymore. He's not in the code working on the HTML and the CSS.
In some sense he's passed that baton of actually building the web to another generation. Instead he's taking on a role as kind of godfather of the web of helping to identify voices and shape from a high level what the web might be. I remember a few years ago when HTML five was kind of on the rise. It was very confusing for everyone. Jeffrey kind of put the bat signal in the sky and called a bunch of people together to New York where he lives. Why don't we all get together and just try and get our heads around this.
I was very honored to be included amongst people, just a handful of people. That was a really sort of Jeffrey thing to do. To me it was like, I don't understand this stuff. Let me get together some of these other people who also don't understand it but together as a community we'll figure this stuff out. It just makes you feel safe that someone else even if you haven't, if you're not up to hit the standard that someone else has got this for the minute and maybe you can chip in along the way, maybe you can help and add something to it but for the most part someone else has laid all the foundations for us to then add to which is extraordinary.
When I got my first New York agency job, within a week I found a partner Jerry Vaglio who they were using at the time, they were some older not very talented art directors were sometimes throwing them a crumb. Basically they were using them as a pair of hands and using in a mat room. This guy was amazing. I just thought, wow, he's so much more talented than me. I would love to work with this guy. No matter what I'm working on, I'm always looking for people who are better than I am, who can excite me to be better than I am and who I can collaborate with.
One of the gifts that I've been given in my life and in my career is the ability to recognize talent early on, surround myself with talented people and promote them. I've helped some people become household names and I'm very proud of that. I try to find a person with the right message and put them in front of the right audience in the venue that's best for that audience. For example, the first vehicle for even Ethan Marcotte's responsive web design idea was a talk he gave at Event Apart.
When I saw that, I knew that that was so important that it had to go two places immediately. It had to go on the web, a short version had to go on the web so everyone would get it and he wrote the article and it was on A List Apart, and that was amazing and like everyone saw that. Within a week, people were redesigning their websites. It was amazing. That idea had so much section and I also knew it had to be a book because there was more depth to it. You needed an article that basically say "Here's an idea, "I think it's neat, here's three ways go get going.
"Go, have fun," and then you need this book to say let's really think about what the web really is, the ebb and flow of the web and let's really get into depths about the philosophy of why we do the work we do, how we can make it work better for more people across all devices. They all work together because it's all about getting this information out to the community, spreading these ideas. Secondarily these are businesses but primarily these are idea machines. I went through a personal crisis in the 90s and I had a problem and I was in a 12 step program, and it really helped me change my life.
What they teach you in the program is basically you keep it by giving it away and that thinking was very top of mind to me when I started doing web design. Well if I just learned this, this is cool, someone else will want to know this too. Today, 20 years later. Things like A Book Apart, A List Apart and Event Apart are extensions of that basic instinct of always just keep making sure that you're sharing with others. (mellow music) When I started Happy Cog, I worked around the clock, I worked all the time and I did a lot of unhealthy things.
Constantly drinking caffeine, smoking cigarettes, all these kinds of stuff and strangely if I'm not getting younger and I have a nine year old who I adore and I want to be around as long as I can to help her, to be here for her. I think I have anxiety more than most people and in part it helped me. In the past, fears and neurosis drove me to achieve certain things. I used to open e-mail first thing of the day and be reactive, take care of this, take care of this, take care of this, take ...
I wasn't actually thinking we're doing the right job for any ... I wasn't treating my employees right or my clients right or anything, I was just worrying. There's a certain amount of time everyday that I just do creative work that has nothing to do with clients or the conference or the magazine or anything. Right now it's photography. A year from now it could be music again. Whatever it is, it's just something where I'm doing something. I'm exercising that part of my brain without a deadline, without a goal. It's funny but I still get just as much done as I did when I was working around the clock.
Similarly with my daughter, when I pick up my daughter, I'm not going to check e-mail, I trust so my employee, its crazy but they've learned that they have to text me. If there's something really important that I must respond to, they learned to text me because from hanging out with my daughter and we're eating or reading or playing Minecraft or watching TV or something. I'm not going to be surreptitiously checking my iPhone. It's not exercise, walking, hanging with my kid, doing some creative side project, all that stuff is really important.
It gives me some balance otherwise I couldn't do all these other things. On the other hand, I don't have a normal schedule like some people go,"Oh it's the weekend I'm done." If it's a weekend and I'm not with my daughter, I may be working, I don't care. It's all fun to me, it's all joy. I'm not working for someone I hate, on something I don't believe in. I'm working for people I love, on things I love. (mellow music) I've always taught since I started doing web stuff but I formalized that a few years ago by becoming a faculty member at School of Visual Arts at New York in the MFA Interaction Design program.
I am teaching something that most design schools forget to teach and certainly nobody taught me when I was in school. What I do in my class is bring in other designers and I get them with gentle questions, I get them to talk about their career experience, what worked for them, what didn't, who they are as people. Because it's not just where you work or what kind of work you do, it's what kind of person are you and will you be happy.
There's a kind of personality that's going to do really well at a startup and in other kind that would be absolutely miserable. This class is about exploring what job you want to take. This week we had Josh Clark come in and he is now a consultant. He works with some of the smartest designers and developers around to tackle projects that would ordinarily go to much bigger agencies. He was able to talk about how he manages to do that and work with people because someone in my class whether they know it or not, that's going to be where they end up.
Maybe not immediately but that's going to be the right path for them and they can get it in their mind now so they can work toward it. It's really nice to see the faces and become familiar with the faces of the next generation of interaction designers. There's a new Facebook design and my student from two years ago did it, created it. The names, everyone's going to know the names, everyone's going to talk about. By the time they're ready to speak in Event Apart, I may not be running an Event Apart but they will be carrying on the work. It's really important to touch the next generation and share the ideas with them.
The community that I work with and love, I call people who make websites. That's been the slogan of A List Apart since 1997 for people who make websites. I've been really lucky to be able to have a positive effect in that community, and I'm not done. Lots more to come.