Conversation and QuestionsA conversation with Lynda Barry| 00:04 |
Lynda Weinman: All right.
Today's talk is actually going to focus
| | 00:08 |
on the importance of the arts and how it
fosters empathy and I don't have her
| | 00:12 |
formal bio written.
A lot of you here are her fans, and
| | 00:17 |
that's why you're here.
she's not only a cartoonist, a renowned
| | 00:21 |
cartoonist which as written a lot of
books about creativity and a lot of
| | 00:25 |
initiated a lot of processes that helped
people unlock their their creativity and
| | 00:29 |
their, and their voice, finding their
artistic voice.
| | 00:34 |
So, it's really an honor to have you here
Lynda, do come up and give Lynda a big welcome.
| | 00:39 |
Lynda Barry: Awesome.
(LAUGH).
| | 00:40 |
Lynda Weinman: So, for people who are not
going to get to your lecture tonight and
| | 00:48 |
I, I assume that a few of you are here.
can you give us a really short synopsis
| | 00:57 |
of what you are going to talk about
there?
| | 01:00 |
Lynda Barry: I'm going to, I'm going to talk
about this question that I've kind of
| | 01:02 |
been pursuing, actually, since we were in
school together at the Evergreen State
| | 01:06 |
College, which is a question about
images.
| | 01:10 |
And which is what I think the thing that
we call the Arts contains something
| | 01:14 |
that's kind of alive.
And I, I think image is the right word
| | 01:18 |
for it, and what the biological function
of this thing we call the im, images or
| | 01:22 |
the arts might be.
Because my argument is we wouldn't of
| | 01:27 |
dragged it through all our evolutionary
stages unless it had a biological function.
| | 01:31 |
So, that's kind of what I'm going to be
talking about.
| | 01:33 |
And then, work that I've been doing with
students and scientists about this very thing.
| | 01:40 |
Lynda Weinman: so I think, you know, when
we're little all of us are really
| | 01:43 |
connected to our inner artist and then
the majority of us, as we get older, cut
| | 01:46 |
that off.
Can you talk a little bit about about
| | 01:51 |
that very thing and how you help people
break free of that inhibition, if that's
| | 01:55 |
what you would even characterize it as.
Lynda Barry: Yeah.
| | 02:00 |
well, one of the interesting things about
when we're, here's the way I can describe
| | 02:05 |
it pretty fast.
and how we sort of understand, how almost
| | 02:10 |
all of us understand that if we had a
little kid here, say if we had a
| | 02:13 |
4-year-old here, and we had everything
that she might need to make a drawing.
| | 02:19 |
And we say, come on Mattie let's draw and
she was flipped out, too scared to draw.
| | 02:25 |
Almost all of us would be worried about
her, emotionally.
| | 02:28 |
Now, she's 40, too freaked out to draw,
nobody's worried at all.
| | 02:33 |
>> (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: What happens?
| | 02:36 |
So, that's one of my questions, what the
hell happened?
| | 02:38 |
So, I think what happened, there are a
couple of things that happen, but one of
| | 02:42 |
the things that happens is that in the
beginning a piece of paper is a place for
| | 02:45 |
an experience.
If you watch kids draw, they don't just
| | 02:50 |
draw like this, I will draw a picture
now.
| | 02:53 |
No, they're like making the noises.
look out, little serpentine, save yourself.
| | 03:00 |
You know and they're like making all
these noises, it's a place for an experience.
| | 03:04 |
And then, something happens, where that
place for an experience becomes a thing
| | 03:08 |
that you can tell is good or bad.
And that transitional point usually
| | 03:14 |
happens around adolescence for a lot of
different reasons.
| | 03:19 |
both chemical, and peer related, and all
sorts of things.
| | 03:24 |
And cognitive reasons.
Because there's this period where we can
| | 03:27 |
tell that the chair that we're drawing
doesn't look like a chair in the world
| | 03:30 |
which, you know, is not that big of a
deal, but when somebody else can tell?
| | 03:35 |
It's funny about the word self-conscious
because it's not really about our
| | 03:38 |
self-conscious, it's about being
conscious of somebody else being, knowing
| | 03:40 |
what we're doing.
So, it's, so when we give that up, when
| | 03:44 |
this becomes a thing, I'm curious about
what else we're giving up, when we, when
| | 03:49 |
we no longer draw.
and, so if we're given, I think that
| | 03:54 |
we're giving up something really, really
big, and that it's better to think of a
| | 03:58 |
drawing as a side effect of a certain
state of mind and a physical activity
| | 04:02 |
than to think of it as the aim.
if you watch little kids who will draw
| | 04:09 |
after they're done, say they spend seven
minutes drawing a picture, and then they
| | 04:13 |
take off.
What happen, what, what do they want to
| | 04:17 |
do with the picture that, that doesn't
matter to them a lot of times.
| | 04:20 |
Maybe they'll put it on the fridge, but
mostly they're not heartbroken if they
| | 04:23 |
leave that picture behind.
If an adult spends seven minutes on a
| | 04:27 |
drawing, then afterwards they're like,
what, what do I do with it, you know,
| | 04:31 |
like what does it mean, am I a genius.
Or, have I been screwing around my whole
| | 04:37 |
life and it's finally caught up.
You know, it's like they don't, people
| | 04:40 |
don't know what to do with it or it's
because it's not, that's a side effect of
| | 04:43 |
this certain thing.
So, that's the stuff that I've been
| | 04:47 |
concentrating on.
Lynda Weinman: And you were talking to me
| | 04:49 |
about the importance of doodling.
Can you describe how you see the effect
| | 04:54 |
of being more connected with your
artistic side and, and what impact that
| | 04:58 |
would have if we were better connected.
Lynda Barry: Well, one of the interesting
| | 05:03 |
things about drawing is most people if
they don't draw, most people feel like
| | 05:05 |
they can't draw and they're terrified
about it.
| | 05:08 |
But I always say, well, if there's
something that you draw, like when you're
| | 05:12 |
bored, doodling, people, everybody, all
of you have something that you draw.
| | 05:17 |
So, you know, somebody, I was talking to
somebody, like he was in a bar, he goes,
| | 05:20 |
yeah, I draw eyeballs.
I'm like, lots of eyeballs, apparently.
| | 05:24 |
and so, you know and, and there's
something about that eyeball, when he
| | 05:28 |
draws it, over and over again, and it's,
and it's funny if you're taking notes in
| | 05:32 |
a, in a in an a meeting.
There's that little margin on the side
| | 05:38 |
that's free-ville, you can work anything.
Here, no, I can't draw any eyeballs here,
| | 05:43 |
but here I'm totally free, you know, I
give myself an inch by by eleven inches
| | 05:47 |
to just whack out.
And so what's interesting is I started to
| | 05:52 |
look at and to see if there was any
research on what this might be and there
| | 05:55 |
actually is plenty of research about it.
And the most interesting stuff about it
| | 06:01 |
is that well it's, for instance, here's
a, here's an example of the research.
| | 06:07 |
people were given (LAUGH), it's so
perfect, a really long answering machine
| | 06:12 |
message to listen to, left by a very
boring person, who was also likes to talk
| | 06:18 |
quite a lot.
And what they were going to tell you all
| | 06:23 |
the people that were going to come to
this particular party.
| | 06:27 |
people who just sat and listened.
that was one group.
| | 06:33 |
The other group were people who actually
drew while they were listening, listening.
| | 06:38 |
Then, they were asked to recall how many
names they could remember.
| | 06:41 |
The group that was drawing had a much, a
profoundly higher recall of what they had heard.
| | 06:48 |
and so the, the thought about it is that
I was telling Lynda that, you know, that
| | 06:53 |
term, daydreaming?
I never thought I had daydreams, because
| | 06:56 |
they sound so nice.
Daydreaming.
| | 06:59 |
I always thought I'd know.
You know, it's like, I'm daydreaming.
| | 07:01 |
It's like, I didn't understand it was
just freaking out, like our daily freak
| | 07:04 |
out, you know, the hamster wheel of worry
that we get back in all the time.
| | 07:08 |
So, when we're listening to anyone, even
you all, when you're listening to me
| | 07:11 |
right now.
There's this window of concentration.
| | 07:14 |
But then, maybe I'll say something, or
I'll be boring.
| | 07:16 |
And then, your mind will flip off this
way and stay there for a while.
| | 07:20 |
And then, it'll return.
But you won't have any awareness of that happening.
| | 07:24 |
And in that time when you're gone, a lot
of information just flies right past you.
| | 07:29 |
So, the theories that about drawing or
moving your hands, but, you're drawing,
| | 07:33 |
doodling is that there's something about
enough concentration and moving your hand
| | 07:38 |
that actually allows you to stay in that
place and listen.
| | 07:43 |
And if you know our beautiful just,
Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader
| | 07:47 |
Ginsburg, she has knit through every
single supreme court decision.
| | 07:54 |
She just knits with her little lace
thing, is just like knitting, and I
| | 07:57 |
thought to myself, what's she knitting?
She's knitting a cozy for Scholia's
| | 08:02 |
entire body, you know, just like, just
knitting these full bodysuits, you know.
| | 08:09 |
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: But I would imagine that, that
| | 08:11 |
helps her, not only concentrate, but
keeps her from killing others in the room.
| | 08:15 |
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: Although she does have the needles.
| | 08:17 |
but, so I'm really curious about the
relationship between these, and our
| | 08:22 |
ability to concentrate.
And even when people aren't drawing, if
| | 08:27 |
you're just are aware of hands, that's
another thing that I've been studying, is
| | 08:30 |
our, our hands.
You'll see that they're almost like
| | 08:33 |
little, living creatures.
People are always moving.
| | 08:36 |
I mean, they think they're just sitting
there, but the hand keeps going up here
| | 08:39 |
and just wants to touch this part over
and over, you know what I'm talking about?
| | 08:44 |
You have a friend who, no matter what, is
going like this.
| | 08:46 |
>> (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: And they don't even know it, you
| | 08:49 |
know,their hand just, like, heads up
there.
| | 08:52 |
>> (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: So, that's what I, I'm interested
| | 08:55 |
in all that stuff.
Lynda Weinman: Did you, I mean you personally
| | 08:58 |
to to most people I'm going to make an
assumption, seems so free in terms of
| | 09:02 |
your connection to drawing and your
thoughts and self expression, were you
| | 09:07 |
always that way?
And if not, what helped you unlock that
| | 09:12 |
in yourself?
Lynda Barry: I don't think I, well, I've
| | 09:15 |
always had an affinity for the
humanities.
| | 09:18 |
but I think that it's been kind of, well
then if, I'm going to get back to what I
| | 09:22 |
think the biological function of this
thing we call the arts is.
| | 09:27 |
I think it's a matter of life and death,
and that for I think part of the reason
| | 09:31 |
that we have it is, the I keep trying to
find the right metaphor, but I think it's
| | 09:36 |
the corollary to our immune system.
that and I think of the arts as sort of
| | 09:43 |
our external organs.
And all you have to do is think back to
| | 09:47 |
junior high when you found that song that
saved your life or that book that changed
| | 09:50 |
your life.
What are you talking about?
| | 09:54 |
You really are talking about being in the
state, if you remember being in the 8th
| | 09:57 |
grade where everything is like horrible.
And then, this song comes on and for
| | 10:02 |
three minutes it's like, you know what, I
totally got this nailed.
| | 10:07 |
Then the song's over.
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
| | 10:08 |
Lynda Barry: Don't you, didn't you play it 500
times in a row until if you, for me the
| | 10:12 |
record, we had records, they would get
grey.
| | 10:16 |
They'd start out black and then they
would get grey and they would sound like
| | 10:18 |
(SOUND).
It's like so, so there, so when I think
| | 10:22 |
about this stuff the, so I think that we
use these things to be able to, I, you
| | 10:26 |
know, one of the lines I have is we don't
create this kind of creative world to, to
| | 10:31 |
escape reality.
We create it to be able to stay.
| | 10:39 |
And so, I'm, I'm somebody who had a lot
of trouble with depression.
| | 10:42 |
I've always had a lot of trouble with
depression.
| | 10:44 |
Lots and lots of diff, a difficult home
life.
| | 10:47 |
And I can't imagine, I don't think I'd be
here without without the arts.
| | 10:51 |
I just don't think I would.
And also, by the way, I hate art.
| | 10:54 |
I hate art.
I hate art galleries.
| | 10:59 |
They remind me of intensive care units.
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
| | 11:02 |
Lynda Barry: Doesn't it seem like you don't
know what's going on?
| | 11:04 |
Everything's really expensive, and, and
clean.
| | 11:07 |
And somebody's going to die.
You know?
| | 11:08 |
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
I, because we went to college together I
| | 11:13 |
know that Marilyn Frasca, who was an
instructor at the time had a really big
| | 11:19 |
impact on you.
Can you talk a little bit about that and,
| | 11:25 |
and what she, she gave to you?
Lynda Barry: Yeah.
| | 11:28 |
this is her hat actually.
I know, I know, I know, let's clap for
| | 11:32 |
the hat.
Marilyn Frasca well because of the way
| | 11:36 |
Evergreen was set up it was perfect for a
person like me, and I think a person like
| | 11:41 |
you too.
I remember Lynda very clearly at
| | 11:46 |
Evergreen doing some, she was the first
person I ever saw actually researching
| | 11:50 |
something that wasn't, that wasn't
required.
| | 11:54 |
And I would see her, you know where you
could find her?
| | 11:57 |
By the card catalog, which now is the
digital world, but back then, that was
| | 12:00 |
the closest thing to a computer that
existed.
| | 12:03 |
And that's where she would be looking up
stuff.
| | 12:06 |
And I would always want to know what she
was looking up, you know?
| | 12:09 |
And the first thing I remember talking to
you about this conversation, she was, you
| | 12:13 |
know, I, I kind of I,I looked up to you
quite a lot, a lot.
| | 12:16 |
And I went over and I'm, talk to her,
talk to her, talk to her.
| | 12:21 |
Do it.
And so, and you're like looking through
| | 12:23 |
this stuff.
And I say hey, so what are you looking up?
| | 12:27 |
And you looked at me and you went,
memory.
| | 12:29 |
Computers.
I mean, there she was, let's figure out memory.
| | 12:33 |
anyway, at Evergreen Evergreen allows you
to have a very tight relationship with a
| | 12:38 |
professor which is great if you have a
good professor, really bad if you don't.
| | 12:44 |
because it's like a bad marriage.
But I met Marilyn Frasca and she's the
| | 12:49 |
one that asked me this question about
what an image is, and also taught me
| | 12:53 |
daily working practice that I continue to
this day.
| | 12:59 |
and a way of working that I've sort of
her thing was, what is an image?
| | 13:04 |
And I feel like I've carried that work
that she's done into the sciences and
| | 13:09 |
into brain studies and into what the
biological function of the image might be.
| | 13:16 |
So, we're still really good friend, well,
I don't ever want to be friends with her,
| | 13:18 |
I always want her to be my teacher.
Like it freaked me out the first time I
| | 13:22 |
saw her eating.
You know, you never want to see your
| | 13:26 |
teacher eat or do anything like a human.
You know, you just want them to after you
| | 13:29 |
leave they just disappear and wait, and
wait for you to conjure them again, you know.
| | 13:34 |
So, yeah, she's, it's, it's interesting
to think of how something and that
| | 13:39 |
happened so many years ago, could still
be the driving force, you know, in, in a
| | 13:43 |
person's life.
And also that we're sitting here is
| | 13:48 |
amazing to me, and why not, right?
Lynda Weinman: I know that you are teaching at
| | 13:54 |
University of Wisconsin.
What are you teaching?
| | 13:57 |
Lynda Barry: I'm teaching a class called the
unthinkable mind, and it is a class that
| | 14:01 |
students can choose to take as either an
art credit or an English credit.
| | 14:07 |
And we got so close to getting a science
credit, because it's a lot about the
| | 14:11 |
hemispheric differences in the brain, and
for example, my, my poor class, they're
| | 14:16 |
my experimental.
They're my, like little lab rats, you know?
| | 14:21 |
And so, for example, I'm really
interested in how people learn, and how
| | 14:25 |
they remember stuff so for to teach them
all the parts of the brain, instead of
| | 14:28 |
using each other's names.
each student has a part of the brain that
| | 14:34 |
they're called, and now we're totally
used to it, like I saw a corpus collosum
| | 14:37 |
at a party the other night.
For real?
| | 14:41 |
She was with hypothalamus.
Oh, that's interesting.
| | 14:44 |
so, and, and I'm Professor Old Skull.
That's my name because I contain them all
| | 14:50 |
in my old skull.
so it's a, so it's a, it's a class about,
| | 14:54 |
kind of following what the, the current
research in neuroscience and kind of how
| | 14:59 |
it relates to the arts and what happens.
Because remember when we all, if you were
| | 15:06 |
an art student, you, you were done
studying science.
| | 15:10 |
I mean, once you got to college in a
funny way, we got to study all those
| | 15:12 |
things in school.
And then, after a while we're just separated.
| | 15:16 |
So, I wanted to see what happened when we
got back together.
| | 15:20 |
And particular, I was especially
interested in working with people who
| | 15:23 |
absolutely have no interest in drawing
and don't think of themselves as creative.
| | 15:29 |
And to see if the arts might have another
function in their lives other than
| | 15:33 |
making, something that looks fantastic,
that everyone can dig.
| | 15:38 |
I love it.
I mean it's like something other than that.
| | 15:42 |
So, that's what I'm doing.
That's what I'm teaching and it's write,
| | 15:44 |
it's an intensive program.
It's writing drawing a lot of study about
| | 15:49 |
the brain and a lot of memorization of
poetry.
| | 15:53 |
Which at first they were so miserable
until I taught them many manly tricks on
| | 15:57 |
how to memorize poems.
So, I can teach you all to.
| | 16:02 |
Lynda Weinman: Oh, I want to know at least
one.
| | 16:04 |
Barr Okay Emily Dickinson who's one of
my favorite poets only because I used to
| | 16:08 |
lie about loving her because I was some
dude or a chick.
| | 16:13 |
I can't remember who but somebody I had a
crush on who loved Emily Dickinson.
| | 16:16 |
I don't remember the person.
I just remember Emily Dickinson.
| | 16:18 |
And so, I said, oh yeah, I love her.
Oh, she's amazing.
| | 16:21 |
And then, I'd read her poetry like this.
Like, you know, like, how do you read a poem?
| | 16:27 |
What the hell does it mean?
And it took me a really long time to
| | 16:30 |
figure out that, one, poems don't have a
fixed meaning they're kind of containers.
| | 16:36 |
But the other thing is it's a lot better
if you have them in your head.
| | 16:40 |
so I had to figure out how to, so Emily
Dickinson and the cadence, a lot of
| | 16:44 |
people know you can sing Emily Dickinson
to Yellow Rose of Texas.
| | 16:49 |
But here's the other thing that I found
out.
| | 16:51 |
Girl From Ipanema, I felt a cleaving in
my mind as if my brain had split.
| | 16:59 |
I tried to match it seam by seam but
could not make them fit.
| | 17:03 |
Or Gershwin.
I felt a cleaving in my mind, as if my
| | 17:07 |
brain had split.
I tried to match him seam by seam, but
| | 17:10 |
could not make them fit.
Hernando's Hideaway, I mean, you know,
| | 17:14 |
you can do Love Potion Number Nine.
California Girls.
| | 17:18 |
It turns out that this weird cadence
appears over and over and over and over again.
| | 17:25 |
and it's, it's, apparently, is a cadence
at our brain, at least the Western brain,
| | 17:29 |
seems to really love.
And so, when I started to find those
| | 17:32 |
ties, and then I realized, I could, I had
the choice, you know when you can have a
| | 17:35 |
song stuck in your head, and it's like
often 5, $5, $5 footlong?
| | 17:40 |
You know?
Like, you didn't mean, you didn't mean to
| | 17:43 |
have that in your head, but somehow, the
footlong thing got in your head, you know?
| | 17:50 |
Well, I realized you could battle it with
Emily Dickinson, and you know how, well,
| | 17:54 |
I did have that $5 footlong thing stuck
in my head for a really long time, and I
| | 17:57 |
finally got rid of it.
I'm in a car with my friend, she's
| | 18:02 |
driving, her daughter's in the back,and
her daughter starts going, 5, 5, I'm
| | 18:06 |
like, no, please.
And then, her daughter goes, goes, 5, $5,
| | 18:12 |
$5 foot-loose, foot-lose, and I went,
that's how you do it.
| | 18:17 |
You, you take the song that's stuck in
your head and you somehow tie it to
| | 18:20 |
another song, so, and Footloose will
knock anything off out of your mind.
| | 18:24 |
Lynda Weinman: I'm curious, just, I mean, this
idea just struck me if that's almost
| | 18:28 |
similar to the idea of doodling too, were
you doing two different activities and
| | 18:31 |
somehow they're sort of reinforcing each
other?
| | 18:35 |
Is there a connection?
Lynda Barry: Yes.
| | 18:37 |
And, and one is physical, you know, and
there is that physical part about
| | 18:40 |
singing, so.
And it's, it's funny what the, and with
| | 18:43 |
poetry too because it's something that I
came back, well, that I come to on my
| | 18:47 |
knees with grace and thanking.
only when I stopped trying to understand it.
| | 18:53 |
And I started to memorize it.
And then, you know, when you're getting
| | 18:56 |
older, you have those questions.
Can I still memorize anything?
| | 18:59 |
It's like, yeah, all those terrible ads
that you have in your head.
| | 19:03 |
one of the exercises I love to give my
students is I give them seven and a half
| | 19:06 |
minutes to write down everything they've
memorized without trying.
| | 19:10 |
And then we read them as if it's a poem,
we read them as if it's a poem and it's
| | 19:14 |
astonishing what people, what you have in
your head.
| | 19:19 |
I mean, you could do it every day for the
rest of your life.
| | 19:21 |
Write down something you memorized
without trying and never run out.
| | 19:25 |
And so, how's that working, you know.
Advertisers understand that mixing visual image.
| | 19:32 |
and some kind of sound works or a piece
of music, and, and certain kinds of words.
| | 19:39 |
They understand that the, like you were
saying, that those two things come
| | 19:41 |
together and, and our memories like that
or our brains seem to like that.
| | 19:44 |
Lynda Weinman: when I knew you as a student,
your career directly after college was to
| | 19:49 |
become a cartoonist, and then you become
a playwright and a novelist, and now
| | 19:53 |
you're a teacher although you're probably
still all of those other things.
| | 20:01 |
what got you interested in teaching and
how do you like it?
| | 20:05 |
Lynda Barry: I got interested in teaching, I
love teaching.
| | 20:07 |
I got interested in teaching because my
own practice could only get me so far in
| | 20:11 |
trying to figure out this question of
what the function, the biological or, or
| | 20:15 |
physical function of the arts might be.
I mean you, you can only get so far by
| | 20:21 |
yourself, and I had been teaching writing
workshops short ones, and I was starting
| | 20:25 |
to see kind of how memory works, and in
particular spontaneous memory.
| | 20:30 |
So, I'll give you an example of what I do
in my class.
| | 20:34 |
I want you to just think of a car from
when you were little.
| | 20:36 |
Just for a second.
Does everybody got a car in their head?
| | 20:39 |
There it is.
First of all, there it is.
| | 20:40 |
Where was that sitting.
Okay, now it's, now picture it for a second.
| | 20:46 |
And, and so as you picture it are you
inside of the car or outside of the car?
| | 20:49 |
>> Outside.
Lynda Barry: Some some people are inside, right?
| | 20:53 |
And if you're outside of the car, you,
which side of the car are you facing, and
| | 20:56 |
if you're inside of the car, which part
of the car, which seat are you sitting in?
| | 21:01 |
And as you're looking around, I can ask
you these questions.
| | 21:04 |
You'll know the answer, is it day or
night in this image?
| | 21:07 |
You know, right?
But what season does it seem to be?
| | 21:11 |
Oh, hell, you know that too.
Right?
| | 21:13 |
About what time of day is it?
Lord, do you know that?
| | 21:17 |
And then, I can ask where the light's
coming from and what kind of light it is.
| | 21:21 |
And if, and I can ask you where you are.
And I can ask you what's in front of you
| | 21:26 |
and to the left and to the right and
behind you.
| | 21:29 |
And you can answer that.
And then, I can say let's erase it.
| | 21:31 |
Now, I want you to think of a kitchen
table from when you were little.
| | 21:35 |
There you are.
What time of day is it?
| | 21:38 |
Right?
Like what the hell is that?
| | 21:40 |
And it turns out any, I can give you
teeth, any noun, any noun and any gerrand
| | 21:45 |
or, or ing words like squatting, or
screaming, or running, which you should
| | 21:50 |
do every day.
all those three things.
| | 21:55 |
But but the associative, it's as if the
back of the mind really has stories and
| | 22:00 |
if we, and if we took that car piece and
I ask you to imagine all these things.
| | 22:06 |
I'd actually ask you to draw an x and
write all the answers down.
| | 22:09 |
What I do is I ask, I tell my students to
pretend they were on the phone.
| | 22:13 |
You can see the image, I can't, I'm
asking you questions you tell me what's
| | 22:16 |
there, like where are you, what's the
weather like, what are you doing, why are
| | 22:19 |
you there?
And when we start to answer those
| | 22:23 |
questions, a story just naturally seems
to come about and I usually have people
| | 22:27 |
write for 7 and a half minutes.
And I tell them that when they have three
| | 22:33 |
more minutes left and then one more
minute.
| | 22:36 |
Because we're natural editors.
All of you have been on a situation where
| | 22:39 |
you've been on the phone with somebody.
You both hate this person.
| | 22:43 |
Let's call that person Skittles.
Oh, at work, you know what Skittles did today?
| | 22:47 |
Tell me man, I hate her.
I know, me too.
| | 22:50 |
And you're, and you're talking about it
and you think you have five minutes to go
| | 22:53 |
on about how awful Skittles is, but then
you realize you only have one minute, you
| | 22:56 |
totally know how to edit that story.
That's the thing, all the things that we
| | 23:02 |
call story structure, editing, all this
stuff, the only reason we know about them
| | 23:06 |
and can do them is because they already
exist.
| | 23:11 |
we oftentimes think that we have to learn
about story structure but the only reason
| | 23:14 |
we can even call it is because it's
already there.
| | 23:17 |
I always think people have it backwards,
it's like thinking, people think, oh, I
| | 23:20 |
need to learn story structure to write a
story.
| | 23:23 |
It's like thinking you can only have
teeth after looking at dentures, it's the
| | 23:27 |
other way around.
Dentures look like teeth, you know?
| | 23:30 |
So uh, (LAUGH) that's that's the stuff
that I'm the most interested in.
| | 23:35 |
And I'm interested in how I believe, I
believe it, it with all my heart that
| | 23:39 |
this ability is in almost everybody.
And helps you get a lot of free beer at
| | 23:44 |
airport bars because people say, you
know, because they look at me and I'm
| | 23:47 |
like, hey, I'll talk to her.
You know, this will be interesting.
| | 23:51 |
I'll tell everyone I talked to some
freaky menopausal woman, and, and I'll be
| | 23:54 |
like, yeah, talk to me, you know?
And they ask me what I do, and I say, I write.
| | 23:59 |
And they always say, oh, I wish I could
write, and I say, I bet you can.
| | 24:02 |
And then, I do the car thing with them.
And right before things are getting, I
| | 24:06 |
can see the story, that's when I order
another beer.
| | 24:09 |
And they go, no, no, I'll get it for you.
And, and that's how I paid, that's how I
| | 24:13 |
paid for my college education.
I paid it all back in with beer from the airport.
| | 24:20 |
Because people get happy.
When they, when they, when they feel that thing.
| | 24:28 |
Lynda Weinman: Well, I think another thing
that gets people happy is you know how to
| | 24:30 |
make people laugh.
Have you always known how to make people laugh?
| | 24:32 |
Lynda Barry: No.
Lynda Weinman: Where does that come from?
| | 24:34 |
Lynda Barry: Well, you know, I always thought
so.
| | 24:35 |
I guess a little.
I don't know.
| | 24:40 |
I, I'm a little bit of a ham.
My husband says I'm a sequined ham.
| | 24:43 |
Isn't that a terrible image you'll never
get out of your mind?
| | 24:47 |
It's horrible.
Don't you want to make one now, immediately?
| | 24:51 |
What are you doing?
Canned ham pins, and sequins.
| | 24:55 |
What are you bringing?
you'll see.
| | 25:00 |
It's horrible, isn't it?
I so want to make one.
| | 25:07 |
I, I mean, I think part of what you do is
you free others by helping them laugh.
| | 25:15 |
And part of being able to have that
conduit to your own creativity is this
| | 25:18 |
idea of being free and not worrying about
what other people are thinking about you.
| | 25:24 |
Lynda Weinman: Do you agree that that's a very
important component?
| | 25:27 |
Lynda Barry: It is, but it's very difficult to
get to and I don't think it's the objective.
| | 25:34 |
Because if, if you're waiting to not
worry about what people are going to
| | 25:36 |
think about you, you're going to wait in
a very long line.
| | 25:39 |
I think it's okay to proceeds with worry
and terror and fear and doubt.
| | 25:45 |
you know that thing after you've had a
spontaneous interchange with someone, say
| | 25:48 |
at a party.
And then, you go home and you're laying
| | 25:52 |
in bed and you go over every single thing
that you said and you cringe.
| | 25:56 |
You know, this thing, oh god, I'm an ass,
I'm such an ass.
| | 26:00 |
And I am, like such an ass that I have to
I often have to call the host of the
| | 26:04 |
party and apologize for being such an
ass.
| | 26:08 |
So, I called a friend, Margy (UNKNOWN),
who lives in Los Angeles, and she had,
| | 26:12 |
had this party and I called her after I
had been an ass at her party, and how was
| | 26:16 |
I an ass?
I decided it would be hilarious to try to
| | 26:20 |
crawl through people's legs while they
were talking.
| | 26:22 |
And, and for the most part if you do
that, you come crawling, mostly people
| | 26:26 |
will do this, right, but occasionally
you'll get someone who won't and they
| | 26:29 |
will just do this and I have to keep
crawling.
| | 26:34 |
And and then at that point the
spontaneous thing is over and it's a test
| | 26:38 |
of wills, and so I had to call her and
apologize.
| | 26:44 |
And, and it had been on a Saturday night.
And so, I called, but I couldn't wait.
| | 26:47 |
I had been up all night cringing.
And so, I called like at eight in the
| | 26:51 |
morning on a Sunday after a party which
I, I really was an ass.
| | 26:55 |
And I, I said listen I'm sorry to wake
you up.
| | 26:56 |
I just want to tell you I'm so sorry I
was an ass at your party last night.
| | 27:00 |
She goes.
Lynda, are you thinking about what an ass
| | 27:02 |
anybody else was at the party last night?
And I'm going, no.
| | 27:06 |
She goes, I hate to tell you this,
they're not thinking about you, either.
| | 27:09 |
But I was the biggest ass at the party.
No, but that's a good thing to remember
| | 27:15 |
when you're cringing, that everybody's
just cringing about their own stuff.
| | 27:19 |
They're not cringing about you, unless
you crawl through their legs.
| | 27:23 |
And I wish I could say this was a long
time ago.
| | 27:30 |
It wasn't.
Lynda Weinman: (LAUGH).
| | 27:34 |
well I, I am going to open this up for Q
and A, but before we do Linda, you and I
| | 27:39 |
were talking a lot about education.
And I know that you were asking at least
| | 27:44 |
you were telling me about an experiment
that you did with a, with, I don't know
| | 27:49 |
if it was a research pro, project about
the future of education.
| | 27:54 |
Do you want to tell that story?
Lynda Barry: yeah.
| | 27:57 |
I was part of I somehow wormed my way
into the Wisconsin Institutes for
| | 28:00 |
Discovery, I think at the University of
Wisconsin Madison, which is this.
| | 28:05 |
It's a place where scientists are
supposed to gather and, I don't know,
| | 28:08 |
smell each other, or something and have
insight.
| | 28:11 |
but, but I do, I do love being there and
they gave me an assignment to try to
| | 28:15 |
figure out, they just wanted me to get
art students to draw what they thought
| | 28:19 |
the future of a university might be.
in 100 years.
| | 28:25 |
but I thought well, shoot, if I'm
going to do this, I'm going to talk to everybody.
| | 28:29 |
So, one of the things I did was I went
into elementary schools to try to get
| | 28:32 |
kids to tell me what they thought the
future, what the school would be like in
| | 28:36 |
100 years and to make drawings.
But I, that's when I learned, well,
| | 28:42 |
scientific method, how you pose the
question is really key.
| | 28:47 |
And so, what I said to them we are second
graders we all go on the floor ,we are
| | 28:52 |
going to go in the time machine, let's go
over 100 years and then we're going to
| | 28:56 |
come out and tell me what school is like.
So, they do this and look up, what's it
| | 29:04 |
is going to be like, what, really old,
what else?
| | 29:08 |
Teachers, we'll all be dead.
It's like, okay, let's go back in the
| | 29:12 |
time machine.
we're coming out in a different school,
| | 29:15 |
and it's the future.
So, one of the things, one of the things
| | 29:18 |
that, that was really interesting was it
kind of, and then I think again, it's the situation.
| | 29:24 |
If somebody asks you, and you're in,
you're in grade school, to draw the
| | 29:28 |
school in 100 years, what a teacher might
be like in 100 years you're going to draw
| | 29:31 |
a robot just because kids draw a robot
right now.
| | 29:36 |
I got to draw and I'm drawing the teacher
as a robot.
| | 29:38 |
So, I realize that, but one of the things
that was so interesting was that
| | 29:43 |
repeatedly whether it was with elementary
school kids or professors or people from
| | 29:48 |
the community.
There was this feeling that the, there
| | 29:53 |
wouldn't be teachers, which was really
interesting to me, that there wouldn't be teachers.
| | 29:57 |
And that we download everything, and in
fact, one of the images that show that
| | 30:00 |
showed up in drawings over and over
again, whether it was little kids or
| | 30:03 |
grown ups was that we'd have a computer
chip and for some reason everybody thinks
| | 30:06 |
it's going to be right here.
It over, I mean, that's, so there must be
| | 30:12 |
some show I keep thinking, where everyone
says this is where the chip is, or I just
| | 30:16 |
don't think it's a, where everybody just
magically goes, it goes here.
| | 30:21 |
that was one of the things that was sort
of interesting to me, and the other thing
| | 30:25 |
that was great was, what I, what I was
happy with about the kids was, their
| | 30:28 |
vision of technology when they would do
the gestures about it wasn't this and
| | 30:32 |
whasn't this, it was full body.
It was being able to move stuff with
| | 30:38 |
their bodies which the stuff that I'm
studying about hemispheric differences in
| | 30:42 |
the brain and gesture and hand stuff.
That made me feel kind of good that they
| | 30:46 |
were at least moving their bodies while
they were telling me about the future.
| | 30:51 |
so, but we were also talking about this
funny thing about the wonderful things
| | 30:54 |
the good things about technology and the
bad things about technology.
| | 30:59 |
And how somehow one of the studies at the
University of Wisconsin Madison is all
| | 31:03 |
about one of the scientists I'm going to
be doing a project with, is about facial
| | 31:08 |
expression and mirroring.
Mirroring facial expression and what it
| | 31:13 |
has to do with empathy.
And how when we're talking to people we
| | 31:17 |
not, we not only are listening to them,
but we also mi, do micro-mirroring of
| | 31:20 |
what they're saying.
And, interestingly enough, there's a part
| | 31:25 |
of our brain that's devoted to everything
that's going on below eye-level.
| | 31:30 |
And that's devoted to what, looking at
hand gestures.
| | 31:34 |
it's, it's funny because it really can't
see anything this way but it knows
| | 31:36 |
everything that's going on here.
so there was this study done at the
| | 31:41 |
U-Dub, about there was curiosity about
babies who had who use pacifiers for a
| | 31:46 |
very long time when they were growing up.
And because pacifiers, because they're
| | 31:53 |
big like this.
Actually, inhibit the ability to mimic gestures.
| | 31:57 |
to mimic facial expressions.
So, there was a longitudinal study that,
| | 32:01 |
that wanted to know if people who used a
lot of pacifiers might be, have might be
| | 32:06 |
impaired measurably in terms of empathy.
And sure enough, they were able to find,
| | 32:11 |
particularly in boys.
That there was impairment.
| | 32:15 |
Then, somebody said well what about
Botox?
| | 32:19 |
So, they did a study.
And it may not surprise you to find out
| | 32:22 |
that people with Botox showed a marked
decrease in, in empathy when they were
| | 32:26 |
listening to people's stories.
And where do we get Botox?
| | 32:31 |
We get Botox around our eyes, and around
our mouth.
| | 32:34 |
Right there, that's what it sounds like
when you get an injection so, and why do
| | 32:39 |
we have wrinkles there?
because we're using that.
| | 32:44 |
We're using those areas, that's why
they're wrinkled, because we need them to
| | 32:47 |
be able to understand each other and feel
stuff.
| | 32:50 |
So, it's sort of interesting, and one,
one of the things that the thing that I
| | 32:54 |
think is going to be a challenge in terms
of school is, or in, in terms of
| | 32:57 |
technology is, is what's going to happen
to, to that.
| | 33:02 |
To, to that understanding by mimicking
the faces.
| | 33:05 |
And I can say that in my time as a
teacher and, and somebody who's visited
| | 33:09 |
in schools, I've seen the facial affect
flattened.
| | 33:14 |
and it's sort of remarkable to be with
people now who are like 19 or 18 and
| | 33:19 |
it's, there is, you talk to them and you
go right and they look at you like this,
| | 33:24 |
like you're on TV.
And it's a, it's a, it's a strange thing
| | 33:30 |
to watch that, to actually see that
happening.
| | 33:33 |
So, I think it's going to be an
interesting challenge to figure out how
| | 33:36 |
we can take advantage of the internet and
the stuff that now people have access to
| | 33:39 |
all this learning.
But how will we keep the human, not, I
| | 33:44 |
don't want to call it the human part,
because I think that part is human too.
| | 33:47 |
But how will we keep this other thing
going on?
| | 33:50 |
And how, what's going to happen to the
original digital devices.
| | 33:54 |
I mean, for those of you who are a little
older, it may come as a shock to find out
| | 33:57 |
that they don't teach cursive in
elementary school anymore.
| | 34:00 |
It's gone, and I actually have students
this year who can't read cursive.
| | 34:06 |
So they and so could you imagine?
I'll be the last one because I'm not
| | 34:09 |
going to die.
You all are, but I'm not going to die.
| | 34:11 |
So, they'll come up to me and they'll say
old skull can you read this?
| | 34:16 |
You know, it's in cursive.
And I'll go yes, hold on.
| | 34:18 |
I can.
Let me see.
| | 34:20 |
It's from a long time ago.
It's an ancient manuscript.
| | 34:24 |
It says.
Dear Santa,
| | 34:29 |
(LAUGH).
| | 34:31 |
So, what's lost when we, when we, when we
lose something like that, like cursive?
| | 34:35 |
It seems like, oh, we're done with
cursive, but all kinds of things, again,
| | 34:38 |
thinking about this doodling idea and
moving our hands, all kinds of things are
| | 34:41 |
lost when we give up something like that.
so that the stuff that I'm pumped about.
| | 34:49 |
As my students say, I'm totally pumped
about this, me too.
| | 34:56 |
Are you pumped?
Lynda Weinman: I'm totally pumped.
| | 35:02 |
the one thing that I loved about teaching
in, in live classroom was just how much I
| | 35:07 |
actually learned from students.
You know, and how they surprise you.
| | 35:12 |
And they just say things that you didn't
think of.
| | 35:14 |
Lynda Barry: Yeah.
Lynda Weinman: And actually by being a
| | 35:16 |
teacher, you learn more than you would if
you were not a teacher.
| | 35:19 |
It's such a gift to be able to be a
teacher, I think.
| | 35:22 |
Lynda Barry: Well, to be able to teach
something you have to kind of find a way
| | 35:25 |
to explain it, but no, I, I realized I
could only get so far by myself.
| | 35:31 |
And that I really needed these people,
and I sort of needed The University of
| | 35:35 |
Wisconsin has been pretty good to me
about, about letting me kind of just
| | 35:39 |
scrape at the edges.
Like have a, have a class that has these
| | 35:44 |
that you can take for credit either way.
Or design a class that's made for, for
| | 35:49 |
instance, my class, I got a lot of
latitude, and my class has several PhD
| | 35:53 |
candidates and two sophomores.
The the, the age range, there's 20 of them.
| | 35:58 |
The age range is mid 40's to, I think I
have a, a 19-year-old.
| | 36:05 |
And and so it's really interesting.
That's a very rare group.
| | 36:10 |
At Evergreen that wasn't so strange.
We might have something like that but at
| | 36:13 |
the University of Wisconsin, it was
strange.
| | 36:15 |
And it's interesting to all see them
negotiate with each other.
| | 36:19 |
Especially since they don't know each
other's names.
| | 36:22 |
I, I let them know, I let them use their
real names on the last day.
| | 36:26 |
Last year, the class I taught was called
what it is, a similar class, but
| | 36:28 |
everybody just went by, I had them choose
a playing card.
| | 36:32 |
And that was their identity for the whole
for the whole year.
| | 36:35 |
And I was in a bar being interviewed and
somebody was asking me about it just a
| | 36:39 |
couple weeks ago.
And what, what, what was that like with
| | 36:42 |
the playing cards?
How did that work out?
| | 36:43 |
And I said, you want to see?
And I went, two of hearts.
| | 36:46 |
And the guy who was at the bar was one of
my students, two of hearts, just went like.
| | 36:51 |
Like for the rest of his life, you know?
Report, you know, or cerebral cortex for
| | 36:56 |
the rest of his life is going to be like,
what?
| | 36:59 |
Lynda Weinman: But it does sound liberating,
because I think I think that, I don't
| | 37:03 |
know, I do think there's some sort of
connection between being inhibited and I,
| | 37:06 |
I agree, it's not the panacea to unlock,
you know, everything that's good in life,
| | 37:10 |
but I, I think what you're doing by
giving them the avatars, so to speak, is
| | 37:14 |
that you're freeing them from what they
perceive as judgment of who they actually are.
| | 37:23 |
Would, would you agree with that?
Lynda Barry: And also, the hierarchy can't
| | 37:25 |
form in the class.
Lynda Weinman: Mm-hmm.
| | 37:26 |
Lynda Barry: It really, it really inhibits
that idea of who's good and who isn't
| | 37:30 |
because nobody knows whose work is what.
but it's interesting about this.
| | 37:37 |
It's you're right about freeing the mind
but what is it?
| | 37:40 |
And, and I think it's again with
hemispheric differences.
| | 37:42 |
I think it's this funny little transfer.
For example, when I, I use the oldest
| | 37:47 |
art, the oldest art supplies that have
been in continuous use around.
| | 37:52 |
Which is, I use ink stone, Chinese ink
that I grind, and a, and a brush.
| | 37:57 |
And, when I go to different little
festivals or, or conferences there's
| | 38:01 |
often a time that, where everybody drinks
and I get really bored.
| | 38:07 |
So, I just bring my, my painting stuff,
and I start painting and drinking which
| | 38:11 |
is an awesome combination.
And so, and usually people will come over
| | 38:15 |
and want to talk to me, and see what I'm
doing.
| | 38:17 |
And then, I explain the, the Chinese art
supplies and then I usually hand them the
| | 38:21 |
brush to see if they'll make a line.
Almost everybody will take the brush,
| | 38:26 |
except for this one time when I was at a,
a design conference called the Cusp
| | 38:29 |
Conference in Chicago, and it was all
hot-shot designers who had done all of
| | 38:31 |
these fantastic, I mean, they were
fantastic.
| | 38:36 |
And so, I was sitting there doing it and
I tried to hand these people the brush
| | 38:39 |
and they would go, no, no, no, give it to
Lynda.
| | 38:41 |
No, Craig will do it.
And everybody was, like, well, I realized
| | 38:43 |
they were flipped out.
And, so I thought, here I am.
| | 38:46 |
I'm, I'm seeing it.
This thing I've been curious about.
| | 38:48 |
And, they didn't want to do it.
They didn't want to make a line in front
| | 38:50 |
of each other.
And I said, well, you know, there's this
| | 38:53 |
really cool game which I'm making up
right now as I'm telling it to you.
| | 38:56 |
where you take a, you just draw a square.
And then, you take the brush, and you
| | 39:00 |
divide that in half.
And then, you take the brush where you
| | 39:02 |
divide those halves in halves.
And you keep doing that.
| | 39:05 |
And until, and, if any of the lines
touch, you get electrocuted.
| | 39:10 |
Then they all wanted to do it.
It was like,
| | 39:13 |
What happened?
Same brush, same piece of paper.
| | 39:17 |
Prospect of electrocution?
Absolutely want to do it.
| | 39:20 |
And I think that's one of the things that
gave me a clue to, it went from a thing,
| | 39:24 |
to a place for an experience.
Even if the experience is electrocution.
| | 39:29 |
It's still preferable to, you can't draw.
It's like so that, that got me interested
| | 39:34 |
in that and, and I think there is a
freeing.
| | 39:37 |
Now, what's the freeing?
The freeing is just a different
| | 39:40 |
perspective again freeing sounds like day
dreaming.
| | 39:43 |
I never thought I was free, because I
always imagined you feel free and kind of
| | 39:46 |
look free.
but, but which is I actually don't like
| | 39:50 |
people who look free.
But at all, but but I think that that, I
| | 39:55 |
think it's a shift in perspective maybe.
Lynda Weinman: Yeah.
| | 40:01 |
| | Collapse this transcript |
| Questions and answers| 00:00 |
It's a really good question, about,
concern about memory and then concern
| | 00:04 |
about as we're getting older, that our
memories might be might be in decline.
| | 00:10 |
One of the most interesting, again
(INAUDIBLE) the study, the stuff that we
| | 00:14 |
know about the brain, a lot of it is
based on FMRI's the, the, this
| | 00:18 |
neuroimaging that people are, are able to
do and other stuff, other ways of measuring.
| | 00:25 |
But the most interesting research that's
come out in the last few years is that
| | 00:30 |
whether we are remembering an event from
the past, or imagining event in the
| | 00:34 |
future, we're reading fiction about an
event that didn't happen.
| | 00:41 |
The neural pathways are identical.
Whether we're remembering, projecting, or
| | 00:45 |
it's this, you know when I was a kid I
always wanted a time machine.
| | 00:49 |
You probably all did too.
My nephew modified his, he goes, I want a
| | 00:52 |
time machine but I want it to have this
knob that's future past and meanwhile.
| | 00:57 |
The meanwhile knob, man.
(LAUGH) So, and so if one of the things
| | 01:01 |
they're understanding about the brain,
they call it the connect dome.
| | 01:05 |
All these, all these ways that, that,
that the brain is connected, for a long
| | 01:09 |
time, there was this idea that where is
memory?
| | 01:13 |
Where is it in the brain?
It's in no specific place.
| | 01:16 |
However, it is in all kinds of places, so
in a funny way when you're walking down
| | 01:19 |
the street, and you smell that smell and
there's your Aunt Lois's backyard.
| | 01:24 |
You know what I'm talking about?
What the hell's that?
| | 01:27 |
What happened was a smell triggered this
thing, but it's not just oh, her backyard.
| | 01:32 |
No, if we froze that I'd be able to ask
you those same questions.
| | 01:36 |
What time of day is it?
Where are you?
| | 01:38 |
So my, my understanding is that either in
participating or, or being active in
| | 01:43 |
writing, your memories or reading
fiction, or thinking, or thinking about
| | 01:48 |
the future, that you're strengthening
those connections.
| | 01:55 |
And when people try to remember.
Here, there's two kinds of memory.
| | 01:59 |
So there's the kind of memory that, you
know, when you're trying to remember the
| | 02:02 |
name of that guy who was in that film.
Oh, you know him, the one that was in
| | 02:06 |
that movie.
The, with the hair.
| | 02:08 |
Damn it.
You know, he had the hair.
| | 02:10 |
What, what was his name?
And the more you think about it, more
| | 02:14 |
specifically you think about it.
What's interesting is you can come up
| | 02:18 |
with all elements.
You can come up with it begins with an M.
| | 02:23 |
It has, it has three it has three
syllables.
| | 02:26 |
You know what I mean.
You will be able to get all the stuff.
| | 02:29 |
But the more you concentrate on it, the
less you'll be able to know the name, and
| | 02:33 |
there's some ideas about that the
specific, the specificity of what you're,
| | 02:36 |
when you're trying to remember, usually
takes place in the this part of the mind,
| | 02:40 |
on the left hemisphere, which does not
know the answer.
| | 02:46 |
It knows all the parts, but it doesn't
know the answer.
| | 02:49 |
So then what happens?
You forget about it, you give up on it,
| | 02:51 |
maybe you'll keep checking it, oh I still
can't remember.
| | 02:54 |
And then you're at the superstore and
you're buying your National Enquirer and
| | 02:58 |
Cheetos and cottage cheese because that's
the combo.
| | 03:01 |
(LAUGH) And while you're, and while
you're doing it, you look up at the
| | 03:04 |
cashier and you go, Victor Mature, Victor
Mature.
| | 03:08 |
(LAUGH).
So what happened there?
| | 03:12 |
Somehow at some point, the back of your
mind, decided, that it was going to send
| | 03:15 |
this thing forward.
And your corpus callosum, in between
| | 03:19 |
those two hemispheres, which people
thought for a long time was the bridge.
| | 03:24 |
Now they know it's the inhibitor between
the, between the two hemispheres.
| | 03:28 |
Your corpus callosum stopped this that
trying to remember, long enough for this,
| | 03:32 |
the whole answer to come to you.
So, when you start to think about memory
| | 03:37 |
being there and that's the, the why
teaching the kind of writing that I
| | 03:40 |
teach, even though it does, the side
effect is you often get really good stories.
| | 03:45 |
the experiences that you're experiencing
this associative memory, that I think,
| | 03:49 |
and there's actually a lot of science
behind it, that strengthens memory as a whole.
| | 03:55 |
And it's not just memory.
I mean, it's memory is for things that
| | 03:58 |
happened, it also strengthens your
ability to think about things in the future.
| | 04:02 |
So if you start to think of it all as
this big round ball, instead of this
| | 04:06 |
linear thing.
And then the hemisphere differences
| | 04:10 |
(INAUDIBLE) between the brain are, are
fascinating.
| | 04:12 |
One of the understandings now and again,
it's from, it's from the corpus callosum
| | 04:16 |
between, that's that band of fibers
between the hemispheres.
| | 04:21 |
When people have epilepsy, particularly
intractable epilepsy in the old days,
| | 04:25 |
they don't do it anymore, they used to
split that, corpus callosum.
| | 04:29 |
And it would, it would, stop the it would
stop the seizures.
| | 04:32 |
But one of the things it did, and there
was a lot, I think it was (INAUDIBLE) was
| | 04:36 |
it UC Davis?
It might have been it was Roger Sperry
| | 04:39 |
and Michael Gazzaniga, who's in a
prominent neuroscientist now, but they'd
| | 04:42 |
studied people who'd had this split brain
thing, and that's when they first started
| | 04:46 |
to understand, we have two brains that
are functional, that have completely
| | 04:49 |
different values, different ways of
looking through the world, different
| | 04:52 |
experience of space and depth, and how
did they find this out?
| | 04:59 |
Go on YouTube.
Write split brain study.
| | 05:03 |
And you will find (INAUDIBLE) amazing
video of a fellow who had his corpus
| | 05:07 |
callosum split.
And they gave him a puzzle to solve.
| | 05:11 |
And the puzzle looks like kind of a
biscuit that's about this high that has
| | 05:14 |
patterns on it and it's divided like a
pie.
| | 05:18 |
Only this side of your brain knows how to
do that puzzle.
| | 05:23 |
So they had the guy, this side of the
brain, right hemisphere, left hand, solve
| | 05:27 |
the puzzle, then they gave same project,
this hand, couldn't solve it at all.
| | 05:34 |
Same dude.
Same eyes, couldn't solve it at all.
| | 05:37 |
In fact, while this, while he was trying
to solve it with this hand, what you'll
| | 05:40 |
see in the video is this hand sneaking in
to try.
| | 05:43 |
And then you see the researchers, they
finally made him just sit on it.
| | 05:47 |
And then they asked the guy to solve it
with both hands.
| | 05:50 |
And you watch these hands fight.
It's hard to imagine that we have
| | 05:54 |
literally two brains with two states and,
and that our transition between them and
| | 05:58 |
we need both and they're both involved in
everything we do.
| | 06:03 |
But our transition between them is pretty
seamless.
| | 06:06 |
And one woman who I was reading about and
event, and eventually your brain kind of
| | 06:10 |
compensates and gets things straight.
But this woman for about a year.
| | 06:15 |
she didn't have any epileptic episodes
afterwards, but whenever she tried to get
| | 06:18 |
dressed, her right hand knew what she was
supposed to wear for work, left hand had
| | 06:22 |
a whole different idea about what outfit.
And it wouldn't let it go, and she'd have
| | 06:28 |
to call her daughter in to like, pry her
hands out.
| | 06:31 |
Or when she was buying something at the
store she, (LAUGH) she'd hand the money
| | 06:34 |
to the cashier and the other hand would
like.
| | 06:37 |
(LAUGH) I don't want that shit, you know,
so when you think about this, that there
| | 06:42 |
are two completely functioning brains, it
starts to get very interesting.
| | 06:49 |
And I think that the arts, the system
that we call the arts, is one of, is a
| | 06:53 |
language that both sides So, that's and
the confidence that I have about my work
| | 06:57 |
is all, is, is that I'm confident that
this question is an important and
| | 07:00 |
interesting one.
Although I realized if I solve it, then what?
| | 07:09 |
I mean, it's like, so?
Soylent green is people!
| | 07:14 |
>> (LAUGH).
Lynda Barry: you know, (LAUGH) I mean, that's
| | 07:17 |
the sad part is, there is this feeling
that if we can show through science that
| | 07:21 |
something is true, that there will be a
response and unfortunately, that's not true.
| | 07:28 |
Female I just wanted to mention that
UCSB, Mike Gazzaniga is the executive
| | 07:32 |
director of the Sage Center for the Study
of Mind.
| | 07:35 |
It's a huge center on campus called the
Sage Center, and he's the executive director.
| | 07:40 |
Lynda Barry: Yeah.
Female He's, he's the guy, the
| | 07:41 |
neuroscientist you mentioned.
Lynda Barry: Yeah.
| | 07:42 |
Female He's right, he's here.
Lynda Barry: He's here and he's, it's been a
| | 07:45 |
lifelong study for him.
And I'm interested in his work and then,
| | 07:48 |
the work of Iain McGilchrist.
And the, it's sort of like left
| | 07:51 |
hemisphere/right hemisphere, right, you
want to get 'em in a room with like, no
| | 07:55 |
clothes on and just watch.
And I don't want to have any clothes on either.
| | 07:59 |
And I just want to watch what happens.
Solve me boys.
| | 08:03 |
(LAUGH) Why do I do this?
I'm going to cringe about it tonight.
| | 08:07 |
(LAUGH) I just had to call you all.
Remember, remember when I asked you to
| | 08:15 |
imagine me naked with neuroscientists?
(LAUGH) Go ahead.
| | 08:23 |
The question is, about my career, and
what happens since I sold my first comic
| | 08:27 |
and then, started working for the New
Yorker.
| | 08:32 |
I don't work for the New Yorker, but I
love that everyone thinks I do, which
| | 08:35 |
means you've gotten somewhere.
You were in that film with Bruce Willis.
| | 08:39 |
Yes, I was.
You know, it's like, I'm in all films
| | 08:42 |
with all people now.
But but that's okay, that's okay.
| | 08:46 |
I mean, people, they've written about me
in the New, the New Yorker, but I've
| | 08:49 |
never been in, in the New Yorker, and
that's kind of my choice, not because I
| | 08:51 |
dislike the New Yorker, but I like one
thing that I can sort of imagine and not
| | 08:54 |
be part of.
but and also my job is gone.
| | 09:00 |
I was able to make my living as a weekly
cartoonist for 30 years.
| | 09:06 |
Although the living is, here's the trick.
I got, the pay scale was $10 a week, but
| | 09:12 |
if you get enough of $10 a week then
you're set.
| | 09:17 |
and that's completely gone.
And how my career started was I was
| | 09:21 |
drawing these comics that I thought were
like hilarious.
| | 09:27 |
And they were cactus, cacti.
And they were in bars with women who
| | 09:33 |
were, and the cactus were men and the
women were women.
| | 09:37 |
And the women were thinking there's some
way we can sleep together.
| | 09:40 |
I just know.
>> (LAUGH).
| | 09:42 |
(LAUGH) There's gotta be some way to do
it, you know?
| | 09:46 |
And the cactus was all like, yeah.
And the cactus the cactus had like
| | 09:50 |
cigarettes, and the cactus spoke in this
strange way, you know, like, yeah, lady oh.
| | 09:55 |
You know, like, so I I brought them into
my little local paper, the Seattle Sign,
| | 09:59 |
in Seattle.
And um, (INAUDIBLE) it was like, you
| | 10:02 |
know, it was a hippie paper and the lady
wasn't in who who was, who was the person
| | 10:05 |
in charge of comics.
And so, I left them on the desk with my
| | 10:09 |
phone number and get back to my studio,
it's only a block away.
| | 10:13 |
And the phone's ringing.
And she goes, I want to talk to you about
| | 10:15 |
these comics.
And I had heard talk in person, when
| | 10:18 |
somebody's going to hire you.
I said, I'll be right over and she goes
| | 10:20 |
(INAUDIBLE) and I said, but she didn't
sound happy and I said I'm coming right over.
| | 10:23 |
It was like, I think, why is she unhappy,
she didn't sound happy.
| | 10:26 |
So I go over there and she's like, like
livid.
| | 10:30 |
These racists comics, I'm like.
(LAUGH) She somehow thought, you're
| | 10:37 |
making fun of Mexicans.
I'm like, where?
| | 10:43 |
Where?
These are the most racist things I've
| | 10:45 |
ever seen.
I'm like, wha'.
| | 10:47 |
You know, they have that accent.
I said, look at all the umlauts.
| | 10:51 |
It's not, you know um, (LAUGH) But then,
but then, as I'm leaving, and I'm like "
| | 10:54 |
(UNKNOWN)" and I'm carrying my stuff out,
here comes a hippie, running down the
| | 10:57 |
stairs, and goes, "What was she yelling
at you about?" (UNKNOWN) He controlled
| | 11:01 |
the back page.
He hated her, he didn't give a damn what
| | 11:06 |
my comics were.
All he wanted to think is that these were
| | 11:10 |
be printed and her head would blow off.
(LAUGH) And that's how I got my start.
| | 11:16 |
And I think many, many, many, many, many
careers are started in similar ways you know?
| | 11:24 |
You got hired because somebody hated
somebody who didn't want to hire you, you know.
| | 11:29 |
But yeah, the job is gone, but I, you
know, I sell stuff on, I mean I have no,
| | 11:33 |
shame about, you know, selling stuff on
eBay or Etsy.
| | 11:39 |
Sometimes I sell to, I have never been
able to make a super secure living...
| | 11:44 |
I don't, I still don't have a secure
living.
| | 11:46 |
even if I'm teaching at the UW, I'm not a
permanent hire, it's because they don't,
| | 11:50 |
I don't know about her yet.
(LAUGH) Her syllabus is strange.
| | 12:00 |
Uh, (LAUGH) But I've always been able to
make a living somehow, and I really don't
| | 12:04 |
have any kind of, there's no part of me,
going, that's beneath me.
| | 12:09 |
It's like, no, because there's more
beneath that man.
| | 12:12 |
(LAUGH) Yeah.
There's somebody in the back.
| | 12:17 |
Male Hi, how's it going?
Lynda Barry: Good.
| | 12:18 |
Male I just want to say, I hope that
Chip goes here because I'm ball.
| | 12:21 |
And if the chip went back here, that
would just look ridiculous.
| | 12:24 |
Lynda Barry: Oh.
Male Add that to your tally.
| | 12:26 |
Lynda Barry: That looked really good to me.
You get to come into the thing with the
| | 12:30 |
naked scientist.
(LAUGH) You come on in.
| | 12:34 |
Male Any time, any time.
Lynda Barry: We'll solve you.
| | 12:41 |
Male (CROSSTALK) (LAUGH) So, it seems
like some of the exercises you do with
| | 12:44 |
your students, the ones that involve
clothes (LAUGH) are seven and a half
| | 12:48 |
minutes, and I'm a producer here, and
we've kind of been prototyping a little
| | 12:52 |
bit internally ideas of adding challenges
to some of our courses for our members.
| | 12:59 |
So, you know, they learn something and
then send them off to do this challenge.
| | 13:02 |
Lynda Barry: Yes.
Male We have time frames on some of
| | 13:04 |
them and I'm just wondering what the
seven and 1/2 minutes is.
| | 13:07 |
Is there a strategy to that?
Lynda Barry: seven and 1/2 minutes doesn't
| | 13:11 |
sound intimidating to people.
And seven and 1/2 miniutes, that's just
| | 13:14 |
the beginning part.
I, I, I stretch them out.
| | 13:18 |
The most important thing actually is to
let people know when they have three more
| | 13:21 |
minutes and then one more minute.
because it's sort of like when you're
| | 13:25 |
around, if you've ever been a kid or
you've had kids.
| | 13:28 |
Remember when you're watching t.v.
and there's the kind of mom you could go
| | 13:33 |
five more minutes.
And I mean it.
| | 13:36 |
Or the mom that came in and just turned
the TV off.
| | 13:39 |
And or, or interrupted whatever play that
you were having.
| | 13:42 |
That's, to get into that state of mind,
particularly if you're in deep play, deep
| | 13:45 |
play when kids are really engrossed.
To stop it like that is really it's
| | 13:50 |
violent in a certain way.
And it also doesn't allow the back of the
| | 13:54 |
mind to use that spontaneous organizing
force.
| | 13:58 |
That, as a producer, it doesn't seem very
spontaneous, 'cause you're laying it out.
| | 14:03 |
But when somebody's watching it for the
first time, they either feel it or they don't.
| | 14:06 |
You know what I mean?
That thing.
| | 14:07 |
So it doesn't allow that, that.
Even, we even have queues when we're
| | 14:12 |
watching a story about when it's about
to, to wrap up.
| | 14:15 |
There's all the difference in the world
between something that just stops and
| | 14:18 |
something that concludes.
And at the conclusion ...
| | 14:21 |
It's like a joke.
When a joke concludes, what it does in
| | 14:24 |
this weird way is, when it stops, it's
almost like you shoot back through the
| | 14:27 |
whole thing and then back through it
again with that, with that concluding beat.
| | 14:32 |
so, I can't remember wha-, if I answered
your question or not.
| | 14:35 |
>> (LAUGH) But the seven and a half
minutes, the seven and a half minutes is
| | 14:37 |
just a starting point.
It's not very intimidating, and I've
| | 14:40 |
found that people can tell a good story
in a seven and a half minutes.
| | 14:44 |
Yeah.
If you start out even with 15, they start
| | 14:46 |
to wobble around a little bit, so you
start with seven and a half and then, and
| | 14:49 |
how long, how long do you want to hear
somebody tell a story?
| | 14:53 |
About seven and a half minutes, right?
My friend, my neighbors, Donovan and
| | 14:56 |
Joanie Mitchell, I'm not kidding you, in
Wisconsin, in the street where I live,
| | 15:00 |
the retired couple near our house, are
named Donovan and Joanie Mitchell.
| | 15:05 |
>> (LAUGH) I am not joking.
I thought they were messing with me and
| | 15:11 |
my husband, you know?
It's like, really?
| | 15:13 |
I'm Robert Redford, this is my husband,
Clint Eastwood.
| | 15:16 |
It's like, but Joanie, Joanie's so
awesome, and she goes, you know, no
| | 15:21 |
matter where I go, And how much fun I'm
having.
| | 15:27 |
After an hour, I just want to go home.
And I thought, (LAUGH).
| | 15:34 |
Remember going to concerts?
All I could do was think about being
| | 15:37 |
home, and thinking about the concert,
while I was at the concert like, you know.
| | 15:40 |
Lynda Weinman: It's really, really good
feedback.
| | 15:44 |
Lynda Barry: Go ahead.
That's such a good question, and
| | 15:48 |
specifically, with, with hands.
well, okay, so there's lots of research
| | 15:54 |
about somebody trying to explain, if
they're trying to explain a complicated
| | 15:57 |
thing that they did.
If they're allowed to use their hands,
| | 16:02 |
they can explain it In a certain amount
of time.
| | 16:05 |
Usually a pretty short amount of time.
Like I'm doing it right now.
| | 16:08 |
And I'm indicating time by doing this.
Which is wild.
| | 16:11 |
And I'm not even paying attention to it.
You guys might be looking up here but
| | 16:14 |
there's a part of your brain that's
totally paying attention to this.
| | 16:18 |
So if the person is asked, asked to
explain the same problem or a different
| | 16:21 |
control group but they have to sit on
their hands.
| | 16:25 |
They have a much harder time being able
in fact they actually have a harder time speaking.
| | 16:30 |
And when we're developing in the womb,
the neural connection between our thumbs
| | 16:34 |
and our tongues are, are very close.
In fact, when you watch a kid drawing...
| | 16:41 |
(LAUGH) Actually if you're stuck drawing
just use your And, one of the studies,
| | 16:45 |
again, at the UW, that's really
fascinating, is about, for people who've
| | 16:48 |
had stroke problems.
So they're, it's a stroke related paralysis.
| | 16:53 |
They're having them write with their
tongues, on the roof of their mouths.
| | 16:57 |
Which you all are doing right now.
Right?
| | 16:59 |
(LAUGH) and what will trip you out about
it, and I do suggest it.
| | 17:04 |
Well, so, and somehow it helps rewire
this stuff.
| | 17:07 |
one of the things about, when you start
to do that, first you think,
| | 17:10 |
But what will happen is if you try and do
it enough, your, your experience of how
| | 17:15 |
big your pallet is will blow your mind.
It will start to get very large.
| | 17:20 |
So there is a lot of info and, and then
the stuff that they've learned about,
| | 17:24 |
about rewiring the, (LAUGH) rewiring the
brain so, for Ramachandran, to be a
| | 17:29 |
Ramachandran, who kind of pioneered this
study, but it, but it's now being used,
| | 17:33 |
actually, I saw the thing on 60 Minutes
about it, where people were coming back
| | 17:37 |
from from Iraq or having some kind of
brain damage that results in a certain
| | 17:41 |
sort of paralysis that has to do with the
brain, not with the, an injury to the hand.
| | 17:51 |
So one of the things that they're having
them do is they have these plastic cups.
| | 17:56 |
And so, this is say, this is my damaged
hand, this hand would be immobilized not
| | 17:59 |
damaged this part's damaged so this won't
move.
| | 18:03 |
This hand's immobilized usually by
putting it in it looks like a giant
| | 18:06 |
baseball glove, baseball glove
immobilized.
| | 18:09 |
And then this hand with the help of
somebody, somebody's picking it up,
| | 18:12 |
taking this glass cup, I mean plastic cup
putting it here.
| | 18:16 |
Just doing this over and over again.
and so what's happening is this one's
| | 18:21 |
immobilized this one's moving and the
person sees it move and somehow the brain
| | 18:25 |
starts to rewire and this mother, her son
had come back from Iraq, and she was
| | 18:29 |
talking about going with him to this
physical therapy and she said You know,
| | 18:33 |
it was so, just the saddest thing.
It just seemed like the most ridiculous
| | 18:41 |
thing that she'd ever seen with the sad,
my poor son.
| | 18:44 |
And that nothing was going to happen.
And after a few weeks they were driving home.
| | 18:49 |
She's driving.
He's sitting there.
| | 18:51 |
A song comes on the radio that he can't
stand.
| | 18:54 |
(LAUGH) And it was this moment of like
ahhh!
| | 18:59 |
And I bet it was waah, you know.
Or another guy, another one of
| | 19:02 |
Ramashandran's patients had that same
therapy and, he's, he was going to cut
| | 19:07 |
off his arm actually.
And, his wife, he's talked about how he'd
| | 19:11 |
been doing this therapy for a while and
then his wife is, they're eting dinner
| | 19:15 |
and his wife's like staring at him like
what the.
| | 19:19 |
He's like what, what.
He looks down and he's cutting his meat.
| | 19:22 |
And what he says is so phenomenal in
this, in this piece when they interview him.
| | 19:27 |
He goes, I couldn't do anything for eight
years.
| | 19:29 |
he goes, Now I can, I can open paint
cans, I can comb my hair, I can cut my meat.
| | 19:36 |
He didn't say, I can play piano, I can
fly.
| | 19:39 |
I mean it was the little things, you
know, that he could do, so, but it was
| | 19:43 |
all in moving and so I know that the, and
there's a lot of idea that the actual
| | 19:46 |
development of our hands and our brains
are completely tied together and I would,
| | 19:50 |
my argument is that these are also
extensions of the, of the brain...
| | 19:58 |
so it's fascinating stuff, and they are
the original digital devices.
| | 20:02 |
Wireless.
Biofueled.
| | 20:07 |
Two.
You get buy one, get one free.
| | 20:10 |
So they're really, they're interesting,
and they help us think.
| | 20:15 |
Lynda Weinman: I happened to look down at my
watch and.
| | 20:17 |
Time It's been an hour.
I thought that we were going to spend a
| | 20:20 |
half an hour doing this I had no idea
that so much time had gone by.
| | 20:23 |
(LAUGH) So we do have to conclude, but I
think Linda can hang out for a few
| | 20:27 |
minutes to meet anybody who'd like to
come up and say hi.
| | 20:31 |
I want to thank you all so much for
coming
| | 20:33 |
When I woke up this morning, Bruce said
to me.
| | 20:35 |
Do you realize that Linda is going to
interview Linda at lynda.com?
| | 20:42 |
Lynda Barry: (LAUGH) I love it.
Lynda Weinman: No, I hadn't thought about that.
| | 20:44 |
Lynda Barry: And Linda, thank you so much for
having me.
| | 20:46 |
Lynda Weinman: Well, we're happy you came.
We've been wanting to have you for so long.
| | 20:50 |
Lynda Barry: (SOUND) Thank you, thank you so,
so much.
| | 20:57 |
(LAUGH) All right.
Lynda Weinman: All righty.
| | 21:01 |
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